I think option 2 would work if you are very careful to exchange info along the way. It may require outside contracts (which I believe people are doing anyway). I think it might actually make me more proactive, & that's why I like it! Accountability as you go, rather than doing everything at the end. You could be submitting as you go to see which projects are worthwhile. Could I put a disclaimer on each project, saying, "This song will be submitted for film opps"?
#2766 Posted Thu 24 Aug, 2017 9:05 am
Hey, Shannon. It is probably worth noting that option 2, as you're describing it, would actually be a breach of the site's terms of service, which state, "By downloading content from ProCollabs, you agree not to use it for any purpose other than intended by its copyright owner(s) and commit to abide by any applicable terms, license or legal requirements. For example, it is not permitted to download an unlicensed audio file from an ‘open’ project (i.e. one that has not been completed and approved by collaborators) and to upload it to another public website without express permission of all copyright owner(s)."
If you are creating a joint work project and have collaborators contributing, then the intended purpose of the project is obviously to create a joint work - i.e. a song that you will share in copyright ownership.
I get the frustration though. Sometimes people just leave a project and/or the site, and that can be very inconvenient. But at the end of the day, they have a right to leave and to take their own material with them.
The 'open' project status is supposed to be a safe haven for collaboration and is noncommittal, meaning that sometimes things just don't work out and artists may want to leave a project without the concern that they have given up their contribution to a project that they don't want to be on. So in an open project, the collaborator still owns 100% of the copyright in their own work.
The idea of joint ownership only happens once you have something to share, which is the completed song. At that point, you still have to agree on who owns what percentage in the songwriting and in the master, and also exactly what credits they should have for their contribution. If you never close the project, when do these things get decided and agreed upon? And what evidence do you have of the agreement if there is ever a dispute?
The last thing you want to do is to submit your music to a film opportunity, get a license for $50,000, and then not be able to clear it because your collaborators never agreed on the splits with you, or you just can't get a hold of them. And besides, once you tell them $50,000 is on the table (or even $5,000), see how quickly everybody remembers things differently!
Or worse, you take their contributions and continue to use them in your song without their express permission and they get to hear it while at the movies. If you are using their work without their permission, that's copyright infringement. At this stage, you would probably be wishing you had any agreement in writing - or published on ProCollabs in the song's datasheet.
As you said, you can manage all of this elsewhere with contracts and wot-not, but this platform has been designed to help protect members, provide transparency, maintain records of communications and agreements, and basically help minimize the risk to you while collaborating with strangers from around the world. If you take any actions outside of the platform with collaborators, then you cannot depend on the site for protection or help if there is a dispute.
So to answer your question, "Could I put a disclaimer on each project, saying, this song will be submitted for film opps?" - yes you could put that of course, but it shouldn't be a disclaimer, it should rather be a statement of your intent to pursue film opportunities once the project is completed.
Hopefully, on reading that on your projects and with that ambition in mind, collaborators will be sticking around and eager to sign-off with a shared sense of mission to get their music licensed too!
If you are creating a joint work project and have collaborators contributing, then the intended purpose of the project is obviously to create a joint work - i.e. a song that you will share in copyright ownership.
I get the frustration though. Sometimes people just leave a project and/or the site, and that can be very inconvenient. But at the end of the day, they have a right to leave and to take their own material with them.
The 'open' project status is supposed to be a safe haven for collaboration and is noncommittal, meaning that sometimes things just don't work out and artists may want to leave a project without the concern that they have given up their contribution to a project that they don't want to be on. So in an open project, the collaborator still owns 100% of the copyright in their own work.
The idea of joint ownership only happens once you have something to share, which is the completed song. At that point, you still have to agree on who owns what percentage in the songwriting and in the master, and also exactly what credits they should have for their contribution. If you never close the project, when do these things get decided and agreed upon? And what evidence do you have of the agreement if there is ever a dispute?
The last thing you want to do is to submit your music to a film opportunity, get a license for $50,000, and then not be able to clear it because your collaborators never agreed on the splits with you, or you just can't get a hold of them. And besides, once you tell them $50,000 is on the table (or even $5,000), see how quickly everybody remembers things differently!
Or worse, you take their contributions and continue to use them in your song without their express permission and they get to hear it while at the movies. If you are using their work without their permission, that's copyright infringement. At this stage, you would probably be wishing you had any agreement in writing - or published on ProCollabs in the song's datasheet.
As you said, you can manage all of this elsewhere with contracts and wot-not, but this platform has been designed to help protect members, provide transparency, maintain records of communications and agreements, and basically help minimize the risk to you while collaborating with strangers from around the world. If you take any actions outside of the platform with collaborators, then you cannot depend on the site for protection or help if there is a dispute.
So to answer your question, "Could I put a disclaimer on each project, saying, this song will be submitted for film opps?" - yes you could put that of course, but it shouldn't be a disclaimer, it should rather be a statement of your intent to pursue film opportunities once the project is completed.
Hopefully, on reading that on your projects and with that ambition in mind, collaborators will be sticking around and eager to sign-off with a shared sense of mission to get their music licensed too!
#2767 Posted Thu 24 Aug, 2017 7:07 pm
Wow! Everything is just a great big balancing act, isn't it! We must really love what we're doing to go through all we do!
I do remember it being said, though, that we need a way of contacting our collaborators outside of this site, just in case, but I don't remember what the "just in case" was :) Do you know what I'm talking about? Maybe it was in the tutorials somewhere....I definitely need to give myself a refresher! :)
I definitely don't want to cheat anybody out of copyright. I try to be very generous, even leaving myself out of the recording rights if I didn't do anything recording wise. I guess I just don't want to disappoint people if I submit to a film opportunity & nothing comes of it. I was thinking I would have a chance to get permissions before signing any contracts, but I suppose that in & of itself was naive......
I do remember it being said, though, that we need a way of contacting our collaborators outside of this site, just in case, but I don't remember what the "just in case" was :) Do you know what I'm talking about? Maybe it was in the tutorials somewhere....I definitely need to give myself a refresher! :)
I definitely don't want to cheat anybody out of copyright. I try to be very generous, even leaving myself out of the recording rights if I didn't do anything recording wise. I guess I just don't want to disappoint people if I submit to a film opportunity & nothing comes of it. I was thinking I would have a chance to get permissions before signing any contracts, but I suppose that in & of itself was naive......
#2768 Posted Thu 24 Aug, 2017 8:22 pm
Oh, & Thanks! For always being there to answer questions. Still new at all this!
#2769 Posted Thu 24 Aug, 2017 8:26 pm
Believe me, if we weren't regularly disappointed, it would be because we're not chasing the dream haha!
"I do remember it being said, though, that we need a way of contacting our collaborators outside of this site, just in case, but I don't remember what the just in case was" - I think you are referring to our reference about having the contact details of your co-writers/owners. If you complete a project, a part of that sign-off process includes having the copyright owners provide their contact details. So you have access to this info in the data sheet after the project is completed. Also worth noting that if their details change, they can update this in their profile and the contact info gets automatically updated in the data sheets too. You also have the split sheets available from the data sheet area.
You did mention about maintaining info as you go along, which is a great idea. So when I am managing a project, what I like to do is maintain the copyright and credit info up to date as the project progresses, rather than doing everything at the very end. Then closing the project is quick and easy.
And.. you're welcome. I'm no expert, but given your desire to get published, understanding copyright and how things work on the business side will be crucial to you. But don't take it from me (he is commonly accused of being completely wrong haha), there are plenty of authoritative sites, books, and courses on the subject that you should look in to because, as you said, "everything is just a great big balancing act". So true. I believe you need excellent balance to be successful in this business!
"I do remember it being said, though, that we need a way of contacting our collaborators outside of this site, just in case, but I don't remember what the just in case was" - I think you are referring to our reference about having the contact details of your co-writers/owners. If you complete a project, a part of that sign-off process includes having the copyright owners provide their contact details. So you have access to this info in the data sheet after the project is completed. Also worth noting that if their details change, they can update this in their profile and the contact info gets automatically updated in the data sheets too. You also have the split sheets available from the data sheet area.
You did mention about maintaining info as you go along, which is a great idea. So when I am managing a project, what I like to do is maintain the copyright and credit info up to date as the project progresses, rather than doing everything at the very end. Then closing the project is quick and easy.
And.. you're welcome. I'm no expert, but given your desire to get published, understanding copyright and how things work on the business side will be crucial to you. But don't take it from me (he is commonly accused of being completely wrong haha), there are plenty of authoritative sites, books, and courses on the subject that you should look in to because, as you said, "everything is just a great big balancing act". So true. I believe you need excellent balance to be successful in this business!
#2770 Posted Fri 25 Aug, 2017 2:38 am
Why not allow a "stream only" option in the store just for listening purposes? There are situations when a member might not want their completed music downloaded or sold, but still have it in public view, without having to search for it under a members profile.
Originally posted by DrewRoss on Wed 23 Aug, 2017
Second that!
Selling music I think is so nineties and early noughties.
Selling music I think is so nineties and early noughties.
#2771 Posted Fri 25 Aug, 2017 6:18 pm
We have a kinda ProCollabs radio station idea in mind for that.. maybe, where you would be able to put together playlists or something like that.
#2772 Posted Sat 26 Aug, 2017 2:48 am
